Trianon and anti-western rhetoric in Orbán’s Hungary — A Response to Béla Lipták

I am compelled to reflect on a letter written by Béla Lipták and published in The New York Times. In response to an NYT article entitled “Hungary’s Autocracy Beneath a Patina of Democracy,” Mr. Lipták argued that Hungary’s slide towards authoritarianism and the embrace of anti-western rhetoric is caused by, and is indeed justifiable due to, a deep-rooted anger and a sense of betrayal that the average Hungarian feels today towards what happened nearly one hundred years ago within the context of the Treaty of Trianon. This is when Hungary ceded three-fourths of its territory and two-thirds of its population to neighbouring states. According to Mr. Lipták’s assessment, the trauma of Trianon is front and centre in the lives and thoughts of Hungarians a century later.  Éva Balogh of the Hungarian Spectrum challenged Mr. Lipták on a number of points, noting particularly that polling data shows record high enthusiasm among Hungarians for the European Union. I will raise a few more points.

Mr. Lipták writes: “The main reason for what is happening in Hungary is the alienation and anger Hungarians feel toward Western Europe and the European Union. The cause of this anger is Europe’s failure to do anything to correct the terrible injustice that occurred at the end of World War I through the Treaty of Trianon, when this kingdom, over a thousand years old, was dismembered.”

Béla Lipták (Memory Project)

Mr. Lipták’s letter appears almost to be a red herring: his response to empirical evidence that Viktor Orbán has erected an authoritarian regime beneath the thin window-dressing of democracy is to speak of Trianon, the alleged anger of Hungarians at what is perceived to be a historic injustice and to call for more international understanding of the challenges faced by Hungarian minorities in Romania, Slovakia, Serbia, Ukraine or elsewhere in the Carpathian Basin. The protection of Hungarian minorities in these areas, whether through territorial autonomy, cultural autonomy or other means is a valid and important point for discussion. But it must not be used to detract attention from the far more pressing discussion around the nature of Orbánist authoritarianism–not least because the status of the same minority Hungarians mentioned by Mr. Lipták would become much worse should these countries move in a direction similar to that of Hungary. Mr. Orbán’s persistent language of scapegoating and political shadow-boxing with fabricated, often amorphous enemies, his ability to pit different demographics within society against each other bodes extremely poorly for Hungarians living in neighbouring countries, if the Orbán regime were to be replicated.

There is, however, another reality, and this may prove difficult for Mr. Lipták and perhaps many others active in the western Hungarian diaspora to hear and acknowledge. Polling data shows that Hungarians in Hungary may not feel as much solidarity with Hungarians living as minorities in neighouring countries as some think. Worse still: there exists hostility towards Hungarians from abroad, especially the large number of Transylvanian Hungarians, in Hungary proper. According to a study conducted by Závecz Research in 2016, where respondents were asked about who they would permit to move in as a neighbour, if their opinion were asked, one quarter (24%) of Hungarians indicated that they would not allow a Transylvanian Hungarian to live next door.

A more recent poll, produced by Publicus in 2018, did suggest that 75% of Hungarians today see Trianon as the nation’s greatest trauma, but also noted that 57% of Hungarians agree with the following statement: “The question of Trianon only comes up so frequently for political reasons, because it is useful in inciting national sentiments.” Furthermore, 43% of Hungarians believe that “there is no longer any point in spending time on the question of Trianon.”

Mr. Lipták errs in the same way as so many others do who are active in the western Hungarian diaspora: they believe that their concerns and preoccupation around moments of historic national symbolism are just as much of a preoccupation for people who live and work in Hungary. Yet for many and perhaps most in Hungary, the focus is on bread-and-butter issues of employment, health care, personal well-being, education, pensions, public safety and benefits. Moreover, János Kádár constructed a salient form of Hungarian patriotism and this does not include a concern for Trianon nor even a deep concern for Hungarians living in neighbouring countries. Transylvania and irredentism may strike romantic patriotism in the hearts of many Hungarians living in the western diaspora, but does not move most Hungarians who came of age during the period between the sixties and the late eighties–much like the memory of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution does not strike in them the same feelings either. Their symbols of Hungarian patriotism are simply different and their socio-cultural experience is different too.

Hungarian society, by and large, is not angered by Europe nor by the West. In fact, Hungarians are among the most pro-European peoples in the EU. It is the corrupt Orbán autocracy, which Mr. Lipták often takes pains to avoid explicitly criticizing, that engages in cynical shadow-boxing with a fabricated enemy at times called the West–or Soros, or migrants, or ‘Bolsheviks,’ or the “cosmopolitan liberal conspiracy”–to deflect attention from everyday bread-and-butter issues and to build Hungary’s soft dictatorship.

65 Comments

  1. GYULA BOGNAR says:

    Hungary did not loose a square inch of territory and population as the result of the Peace Treaty after WWI and what they call Trianon.

    There was no independent Hungary before WWI, only Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and WWI was started and lost by A-H Monarch. The Monarchy was dissolved, divided into various nations as the result. Hungary as one of the successors was created by the treaty, as well as the rest of the surrounding countries.
    The borders and division was based on the census of 1910 and there was no retribution or intent to afflict damages on Hungary, by the writers of the peace Treaty.

    Following WWI, Hungary was one of the successors of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy but there was total chaos, the army was released, a communist government ruled for a short time with Red Terror, until the Romanian Army was asked by the winning Allied and Associated Powers to occupy part of Hungary to stabilize conditions. The communist government failed to get rid of the Romanian occupying forces, then Horthy and his soldiers marched in and came into power with the approval of the Allied Forces. An uncontrolled White Terror reigned for a while to get rid of so called communist sympathizers and jews. Nobody participated at the negotiations going on in Versailles.
    =================
    The history of Hungary is constantly being distorted with lies and the falsely represented story of the “Trianon Peace Treaty” was used ever since to make excuses for the lack of success and all the bad deeds of every lousy government in Hungary.

    Note: The Germans are not blaming the loss of WWI, WWII, the division into two countries for their lack of success.
    They organize themselves, clean up the country and work very hard and succeed. That is an example to be followed instead of crying about spilled milk for hundreds of years.

  2. Pierre Divenyi says:

    Well, I don’t know who Mr. Liptak is and in which Western country he lives, but over my 62 years living in the West I haven’t encountered more than a couple Hungarian expats who expressed anti-Trianon views or feelings. As an alternative to reversing the Trianon treaty, the most intelligent opinion I heard about bringing all ethnic Hungarians living in the Carpathian basin was a 2014 speech by Imre Mecs at a Budapest rally. He said that when all countries surrounding Hungary will be members of the EU and will observe its charter to the letter, the liberty and the general well-being the inhabitants of the union enjoy will effectively unite all Hungarians living there because no effective borders between them will exist.

  3. Anyone who advocates for a reversal of Trianon, even a partial reversal, would sign the death warrant of Hungary as a majority Hungarian-speaking state. Careful what you wish for, Mr. Liptak and Co.!

  4. Hungary is being dragged into a slow national catastrophe NOW and these clowns are busy with the water that passed under the bridge between 70 and 100 years ago.

  5. For once I partially agree with Christopher Adam. Liptak is wrong, because Hungary is no more autocratic than most Western countries today. I provided in the past plenty of examples in regards to informal or formal Western media control, ideological homogeneity in institutions such as academia, which then ensures that all institutions become ideologically homogenized. Hungary is an ideological rebel within this context, nothing more.

    As for some of the stats in article, such as the 24% of Hungarians who would not allow a Transylvanian Hungarian to live next door? No surprise there! About the same level of support for the leftist parties of Hungary (Socialists, DK, Momentum). Something tells me that there is a great deal of overlap between these two personal preferences. In my personal experience, there tends to be. It is unfortunate that the Hungarian nation has been “endowed” with such a cultural trait in its midst.

    Lastly, Hungarians and their enthusiasm for EU: After decades of idealizing belonging to the West, versus the communist block, it should come as no surprise. Having said that, the relationship between Western Europe and Eastern Europe today is strikingly similar to the relationship between Britain and its colonies in the past, minus the military occupation (replaced with threat of economic reprisals through isolation, which today is far more potent and effective). People on this site love to point out EU funds and its “generosity”. It helps build infrastructure, helps with education and so on. But then, Britain also built and funded buildings, railroads, roads, schools and so on in India. Makes perfect sense given that it was British capital that was benefiting from being able to operate there. Now consider this in regards to EU funds:

    “Of every Euro that Berlin sends to Brussels, up to 70 percent are returned to German industries in the shape of new international orders”

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-04/07/c_137092595.htm

    To this I would add the benefit of German firms operating in Eastern countries, which I do believe results in a more than 100% return on investment that Germany gets for being a net contributor. At same time, EU rules make it nearly impossible for local capital to become globally competitive. There is a reason why only one company from the entire region is on Fortune 500 list.

    Reason I wanted to point this out is because I think it is a perfect example of the failure of democracy itself. At least the Indians felt consciously oppressed by the situation, where Brits had the capital, while they were the labor input, as well as a market for Brit goods. Eastern Europeans are getting pretty much the same and are begging to have more. Of course, most will never understand such dynamics. The world is too complex for people to have informed opinions that they can base vote and other such preferences on. So then what is the value of democracy?

  6. Bognar could find out in case would want to, that on March 15, 1848, Hungary became totally free and independent as the Nador ,as well emperor Lipot accepted ALL the demands of March youth movement.

    Unfortunately, Kossuth screwed it all up by attempting to raise and army of 200,000 men. It was an absolute declaration of war on Aurtria.
    But in 1868 , with diplomacy,achieved independence again. The declaration of war in 1914 has sure ended it all for good. By losing the war, Hungary lost the only the land that was never Hungary proper. Hungary only ruled most of the nations round about. The Paris peace accord granted independence to those nationalities, on the vases of the 1910 census.

    Like Gyula stated above, Hungary lost only possession of those nationalities. Hungarians better shut up about any loss of land, before Putin’s Army takes back what Moscow considers “their land” !!!!

  7. Andras B. Gollner says:

    I won’t bother responding to the fake news spread by Joe and Bendy goose in this underpass. But I will add my 2 cents worth to Béla Lipták’s cameo performance as the leader of the so-called American-Hungarian lobby which spends its time promoting and/or muddying the waters around the revival of fascist rule in Hungary.

    Lipták will go down in history as the man, who was the most dedicated American-Hungarian enabler of the affinity fraud concocted by the ex-communist Viktor Orbán . That operation resulted in the theft of billions of Euros from EU taxpayers (the EU’s anti-fraud office has identified Hungary as the leading member state in defrauding the EU). The EU Parliament has identified Hungary as the leading member state in contravention of the Union’s sacred values. Mr. Lipták has swallowed Orbán’s bait hook line and sinker, and in the same way close to 100 million American’s have swallowed Donald Trump’s bait that he will make America great again.

    Orbán, Trump, Putin, the meat-grinder in Saudi Arabia, Erdogan, the Little Rocket Man, the new Brazilian autocrat, all of the neo-Fascist wannabees the world over and their enabler’s such as Béla Liptak, are cashing in big time on the growing public ignorance about how justice, the rule of law and sustainable economic development is being hijacked from under our noses. Giving Béla Lipták any serious consideration is like giving the fox an opening into the chicken coop.

    Béla Lipták has sold his soul to the devil a long time ago. His word is not worth the paper it appears on. He has disgraced all that Petőfi, Szécheny, Bibó, or the students and workers of 1956 stood for. His despicable performance to misinform American public opinion about Viktor Orbán’s assault on democracy will never be forgotten by the coming generations of American and Canadian Hungarians.

    • By “sustainable economic development”, did you mean the debt bubble formed between 2002-2010?

      https://tradingeconomics.com/hungary/government-debt-to-gdp

      From 56%/GDP to 83% at government level.

      https://tradingeconomics.com/hungary/households-debt-to-gdp

      From about 7%/GDP in 2002, to 40% by 2010 at household level.

      That was a debt bubble that amounted to about 60% of GDP, not to mention that it was mostly FX debt, which is why Hungary was the first country which needed an IMF bailout in 2008.

      So far, since 2010 Hungary deleveraged at government and consumer level combined by the equivalent of 30% of its GDP, while it also cut the ratio of FX debt by a huge proportion. This while also managing to bring employment rates up to a level not seen in about 30 years, risk of poverty rate declined from 35% peak in 2012, to under 20%. Yes, surely one path is the sustainable economic path, while the other is not. Shall we judge by the actual empirical evidence which one is which? Or do you prefer the ideological “evidence”? I thought you said you are an economist!

    • Andras G.

      Hear, hear!

  8. It is interesting that people of Hungarian origins still cling to the Hungarian language and culture. This is predominant in Kolosvar, Romania. The dislike that ethnic Hungarians display is incredible. Travelling through Slovakia, came across villages that consider themselves Hungarian. Ethnic Hungarians resent the Treaty of Trianon and the Western EU, some expressed hate against all signers of the treaty. Other countries that lost along side Hungary during WWI and WWII eg. Germany and Austria who also lost were never really punished and Germany was rebuilt by the US. Hungary has no reason to trust or love the West. The biggest surprise and probably mistake is that Hungary joined the EU. Anytime Hungary joins the west, the country ends up being the loser. Right now, France and Germany want to do away with individual sovereignty. Hungarian people should have had enough of foreign dictators.

    • Mmburka
      Total BS:
      – the number of those declaring themselves Hu is rapidly declining in Slovakia and Romania, particularly in the cities.
      – “other countries …were never really punished” as they should have been, this infantile notion suggests. But Hungary was punished, so at least in this case justice was served, what’s the problem?
      – Hu has received already TWICE the Marshal Plan funds (relative value) by way of the allegedly hated EU subsidies, but instead of used to “rebuild” Hu these ended in the pockets of Orbàn’s mafia.
      – Re the E.U., the West – your obvious hatred blinds you to the facts that 82% of the referendum votes approved and 70% still do.
      – Years anti West propaganda accompanied Orbàn’s “opening to the east”, emulation of the Med Asian dictators and Putin, so the Hu have their own dictator now, but the Russians seem to have him by the b…s. How’s that?

  9. Ethnic Hungarians, who ended up in other countries after the Treaty of Trianon kept their language and culture. Most of them never integrated. This is evident in Transylvania, where people actually loathe the Romanians

    Other countries, e.g. Germany, Austria (Italy was also on the side of Germany but changed sides) were never really punished after having lose two World Wars. Germany was rebuilt by US taxpayers money. Hungary always ended up worst.

    Hungary has no reason to trust the west and the biggest surprise and probably mistake was to join the EU. Presently, both France and Germany advocate a dictatorship from Brussels. Hungary and its people had enough of foreign dictators.

    • “Hungary and its people had enough of foreign dictators.” But they like the dictatorship. The only problem, it must be a hungarian dictator. If I understood you correctly. The comment has at least style, if you know your comments.

    • ” This is evident in Transylvania, where people actually loathe the Romanians”

      Your statement is a bit harsh to say the least… there are many interethnic marriages between hungarians & romanians and the U.D.M.R.(Democratic Union of Magyars from Romania) leaders from Romania, just love partying and spending Christmas & Easter in Bucharest(it`s closer and looks more western European), rather than in Budapest! They just go to Budapest only when it comes to receiving “operational directives” and suitcases of money(which they spend mostly in Romania and in Bucharest partying), for the rest of the time, they just don`t care! Budapest is too far away!

      Romanians aren`t small brained, wild nazistic types(people)! They accept any culture, as long as they don`t come and try to enforce any set of rules(or general rule) by means of brute force and takeover attempts, such as the Hungarians have attempted to do for centuries, since their comming in to Transylvania in 1003 A.D. until 1918…

  10. What’s “fake news” for you Gollner ?

    Hungary was FREE and totally independent in 1848 March 15-on.
    Until Kossuth screwed it all up.
    That become a bloody and lost war, that was followed by 20 years of terror.

    Deak and Andrasi made a country between 1868-1914.
    Since than it is a total disaster. You are among those that only makes it worse.

    People like you, Liptak and Putin are the men of the past.
    You talk of democracy that has never existed in Hungary, likely may never even be in the future.

    Not the way it is going now and what you and the like of you pushing !!!

    • “Deak” the name itself proves, that it`s not hungarian in origin, only ‘hungarianized’… there are hundreds of thousands of “Deac” family names in Romania!

      By simply swithing the “c” with a “k”… it became ‘hungarian’, that which originally was Dacian(Romanian) of course…

  11. Gyorgy Lazar says:

    There is another aspect to Liptak’s letter in the NYT. During the last couple of years he was able to print several “Letters to the Editor.” I find it curious that his son Adam Liptak works for the NYT as their chief legal correspondent… Adam is also involved in various Hungarian matters, he even had a seminar recently about the US Supreme Court at CEU. Preferential treatment for the senior Liptak at the NYT? I hope not…. but nothing surprises me lately.

  12. StrandedinSopron says:

    “The biggest surprise and probably mistake is that Hungary joined the EU.”

    Well, that can be reversed as Brexit has proven.

    However, Orban, Fidesz and their foreign apologists are too cowardly to put such an option to the Hungarian people because they know what the answer would be- hundreds of thousands of Hungarian economic migrants have already voted with their feet and headed to the “immigrant-loving” west.

    • Actually, Brexit is proving the opposite. If the EU is willing to play hardball with the world’s fifth largest economy, I imagine they would turn Hungary into North Korea, by completely isolating it.

  13. Bruce E. Woych says:

    I have noted that a good deal of Hungarian resentment against the E.U. alignment and perhaps leaning towards accepting authoritarian alternative-right influences is the false association of the Western Democracy with the “Free Trader” neoliberal economic imperialists that swarmed the international financial systems since the 1980s aggressively seizing assets under the umbrella of liberalization strategies from the “Chicago School” of Milton Freeman and his middle-class crashing market political capture of regions (see: The SHOCK DOCTRINE: disclosing a global panacea for control fraud and privatization tactics of economic intervention under market colonization and a neo-imoperialism based upon economic rules of private ownership crossing borders. It is not a surprise that Nationalism and Border Boudaries have become more deliniated and austerity based, or that populism has risen to defend authoritarian controls in the reactive plight against insidious and invasive viral disempowerment touted as economic Shock to salvage professionalized economics of scale (rationalization of demographics as industries for ‘growth” capital ) as a ruling measure.
    Poland and Hungary (as well as the conversion of the U.S.S.R. to the current version of Putin’s Russia) are a result of their “austerity” programs that dismantled traditional economies and “reorganized the restructuring around Finance and an alignment of global “elite” institutions that work like a mafia “BUST-OUT” with legalized looting as policy presented as “Too Big To Fail (TBTF) dependency traps themselves. Debt is the currency, and economic suppression is the power schema under a closed systemic ‘capitalism’ that is institutionalized under Finance and internationalized under control fraud corporatism operationalized by creating ownership markets renting staples and substantial essentials. Populous movements have globally revolted against the consequences of this swarm over the past few decades, while these same “elites” all fade back from the open aggressive policies that placed them in power and disguise themselves under a cloak of “Democracy” (giving a hopeless model of democracy to the vast majority of the global population). In the meantime there are still many honest minded individuals who will operate under the banner of “Free Trade” advocates that are blind true believers in the propaganda of entrepreneurial “Development” and “classical economics” as a science for society under a “Rationalization” of survival necessities to sustain unrelenting path dependency for Wealth Societies with transgressive explanations for why poverty is a victims choice. Is it really a surprise that gangster models of populism have risen under Mafia models of governing turf wars? Bruce E. Woych

  14. Bendeguz79: “Hungary was FREE and totally independent in 1848 March 15-on.”

    Wow! I bet that this is new to an awful lot of people. A real addition to our historical knowledge.

  15. Wow. The amount of history denial, history forgery and just the shear absence of knoweledge of history in this comment section is asthonishing. How can you people be this depraved?
    Every squer meter of land taken away in Trianon is Hungarian land that with the exclusion of Nándorfehérvár, never belonged to the kingdoms of neighbouring nations.
    The occupation of Hungary by Austria does not change this fact.
    These lands belonged to the Hungarian Kingdom since A.C 900,1000.
    Feels like all of you failed history class in primary school

    • Or rather you did Jacky! Do I need to remind you, what Wikipedia writes about Hungary and the asiatic(non-european) origins of the “Hungarian” people?? Just type Hungary in the Google search bar… you should get the results right away!

  16. I totally reject the assertions that Orbán Viktor is a Dictator or an Authoritarian. Orban Viktor is a strong lover of his country and he loves his people. He fights against Dictatorship and Authoritarianism, and installs the good of Democracy which gives the right for the people to decide for themselves what they want in their own country. It was a tragedy what happened to Hungary for the decision that was made to split Hungary and to take away the very land and people that made Hungary strong. If you want to look at Authoritarianism and Dictatorship, take into account just what France and Britain did to Hungary concerning the Trianon. That would be the biggest form of Dictatorship and Authoritarianism that anyone could dream of. Remember, it was the French and the British who started the 1st WW in the first place over a stupid railway system, and the whole rendering was illegal. I have lived in Hungary for about 10 years now, and I detect no sign of anger or pain from the people, just the pain from the ones who found themselves cut off from their own country. Regarding the EU, there is resentment to the EU over their migration policies, and the way they make laws from day to day to keep the member countries in check. For Instance, the commission is trying to push onto Hungary article 7, along with Poland. They are also looking at putting sanctions on Hungary, all basically because Hungary does not want to become a migrant country and are fighting against it. Remember, if you will, a vast majority voted against migration. So, where is the Authoritarianism and Dictatorship, if it isn’t with the EU. No, the Hungarians in general are for staying in the EU, but a change is needed, and not Liberal, Socialist rule. The hungarian people have gone through a lot over the past thousand years and more, but they are still a loving people to themselves and outsiders. I vouch for it. Máté Pál, Hungary.

    • Mate P
      … and pigs fly in Hu… just as Orbàn “fights against Dictatorship..”
      I’ve been living in Hu for 20 years and , btw, voiching by a fool doesn’t help.

  17. Also, if Hungary as no right to its territories that were taken away in Trianon, than how can Israel exist? How does the jews have any right to Israel?
    Or how does France have a right to own all of part of Elsas-lotharing? Or Germany?

    This idea, that if a territory is taken away from its original owner, and occupied for a period of time, takes away the right of the original owner to take its territory back, is complete and utter bullocks that is laughable.

    • “This idea, that if a territory is taken away from its original owner, and occupied for a period of time, takes away the right of the original owner to take its territory back, is complete and utter bullocks that is laughable.”

      And how right you are “Jacky”! 🙂 The fact that Transylvania was only half-owned by you guys, between 1003 A.D. and 1526 A.D. doesn`t mean that we Dacians(Romanians) can`t have it back now… or does this rule only apply in the case of Hungary and to nobody else on this Earth? 🙂

  18. Gyula Bognar is displaying a surprising degree of ignorance in his comment above.

    Firstly, independence is not a binary concept. It has an infinite number of shades and degrees. FWIW Act X of 1790/1791 reconfirmed Hungary’s status as an independent kingdom (regnum independens) so Gyula’s assertion that prior to 1918 there was no independent Hungary is plain wrong. The only period when Hungary’s legal status was in limbo was between 1849 and 1867.

    By extension, his claim that “Hungary did not loose a square inch of territory” is also untrue.

    He also says that “[t]he borders and division was based on the census of 1910,” which is similarly incorrect. Large swathes of almost purely Hungarian-speaking regions had to be ceded to a newly-created successor state called Czechoslovakia, for instance (don’t try to find it on a modern map – it doesn’t exist anymore). The boundaries were drawn in a way that seemed, at the time, to best serve the perceived interests of France, and had nothing to do with the actual ethnic boundaries within the Carpathian Basin. The leaders of France mistakenly thought that creating a string of allied states – which they called a Cordon Sanitaire – would enable them to prevent both the resurrection of a strong Germany and the expansion of Bolshevik Russia. The scheme did not work, as we all know, but that was the thinking behind the newly-drawn borders, even if they meant a major departure from Wilsonian principles of national self-determination.

    In reality, national self-determination was never really on the winners’ agenda. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that no plebiscites/referenda were ever held on the fate of the territories in question, except for a small one in and around Sopron – which the Treaty of Trianon originally mandated to be handed over to Austria – and a handful of other, mainly Croatian-speaking communities that were eventually allowed to have a vote (and voted – surprise, surprise! – overwhelmingly in favour of remaining part of Hungary, earning themselves the title “Communitates Fidelissima”).

  19. It is NO wonder that most readers hate the Antant and Horthy, it was their decision and action that Hungary is NO longer part of Romania.

    As in 1919 was occupied by the Royal Romania Army, and declaired as integral part of Romania, under the rule of the King of Romania.

    To be honest, Hungarians would likely be better off today as part of Romania.
    Just read that today Romania , the people has the greatest (96%) home-ownershipp in the world.

    They build lots of residential buildings, and nice modern and stylish buildings.
    Not junky “panel-houses” like in Hungary.
    Prices are reasonable that all can afford and financing is very easy and convenient.

    Now you all can eat your hearts out ,and enjoy your endless-hatred.

    • “They build lots of residential buildings, and nice modern and stylish buildings.”

      Yes we do! Dacians have been ‘big builders’ since 9000 years ago, or longer… who knows? Maybe more proof will be found in the future from even longer ago…

      Since the `50`s(Gheorghiu Dej`s times) communist Romanian architecture has been influenced a lot by the modern French style, not that the french had absolutely no influence before 1947, but the main difference would be, that Romanian communist built buildings are indeed more ‘stylish’ than communist buildings in other former east european countries, which were more soviet inspired… Hungary including I guess.

      From 1980 onward, Ceausescu built even bigger and prettier, with indigenous designs, made by the time`s architects, 2 rooms apartments, had an average of 65+ square meters as total area, 3 rooms apartments were 90+ square meters and 4 room apartments had 100+ square meters in size, with large american style kitchens and baths!

  20. TRYKER is correct in one thing. That Hungary has lost NO territory of her own land!

    Only lost control over the nearby nearby nations.
    The Hungarian majority occupied lands were granted to Hungary, or the Budapest government.
    However, no functioning government remained.
    That is why chaos took-over in 1919 and the Romanian Army occupied most of the country, and Romania declared a united Romanian Kingdom.

  21. Pingback: On Béla Lipták’s defense of the indefensible

  22. StrandedinSopron says:

    “Actually, Brexit is proving the opposite. ”

    How so?
    I didn’t agree with the Brexiters logic but at least they had the courage of their convictions by pushing ahead to let the British people have the decision whether to leave or not.

    I am saying Orban and his apologists are craven cowards for not following up their anti-EU and generally anti-foreigner, xenophobic rhetoric by actually asking the Hungarian people their opinion about staying. Hungarian laws for Hungarian people without “Brussels’ interference”? Fine. Then put it to the vote or stop whinging.

    Orban criticises endlessly the EU whilst shamelessly pocketing its cash?
    Not a very principled stand to take.

    • 80% of Hungary’s exports go to the EU, and EU companies own most capital in Hungary (same as in all Eastern countries, which lost most capital thanks to the communist experiment and failed to develop new capital thanks to EU regulations and predatory Western capital). EU thus has the power to turn any Eastern member state which might dare to follow on UK footsteps into the poorest country on the continent, and they would not hesitate to do it either, as punishment! So leaving the EU is not an option, because it would be suicidal. It is worse than military occupation. At least people used to be able to revolt against that!

      You are also wrong on anti-EU angle. Orban is not anti-EU. He is against what liberal-globalist elites want to turn the EU into, as well as all the double standards and arbitrary unfairness. As full members of the EU, don’t you think that Hungarians have a right to contribute their voice in this regard? Or do you believe that Hungary should just follow and swallow, like a second class member?

      “Orban criticises endlessly the EU whilst shamelessly pocketing its cash?”

      As I already pointed out, Britain also built infrastructure in India and financed schools and so on, but it did it in its own interest, in order to facilitate Brit capital’s exploitation of the labor force and its consumer market. And as I already pointed out as well, with Germany as an example, German capital gets back more than 100% on German funds going East. So, can take it easy with these EU funds already, because it is shameless given the situation.

      As for Hungary and all other Eastern members in regards to what they get out of membership? Without development of local capital, it is impossible for the region to escape the middle income trap, where only the human capital is local, while foreign companies invest their capital and extract the profits, which then are repatriated. So please, do tell how those funds are a good deal on balance, when it is clearly a neo-colonist economic trap?

  23. A. Gollner as usual YOU provided a clear and a truthful, valid response to Bendi & Joe and the other history a”adjusters”.
    It should be also noted that in the territories taken from the Austro-Hungarian Empire the majority of the populations were NOT native Hungarians.

    • “It should be also noted that in the territories taken from the Austro-Hungarian Empire the majority of the populations were NOT native Hungarians.”

      You might want to note the fact that of the 3.5 million ethnic Hungarians gifted to be doormats to majority populations around Hungary, half lived in majority areas, right along Hungary’s current borders. So at least half could have been spared the past 100 years of misery by simply observing ethnic demarcation lines.

      • “So at least half could have been spared the past 100 years of misery by simply observing ethnic demarcation lines.”

        Well, you know what Joe? We didn`t invite any ‘hungarian’ over… they just invaded us and settled by brute force… who doesn`t like it, can just pick up and leave to where they came from… they are not being tied down to the ground by any ropes or chains!

  24. StrandedinSopron says:

    “It is worse than military occupation.”

    Nonsense. The EU is not murdering or even oppressing those within who disagree with its very existence.

    “As full members of the EU, don’t you think that Hungarians have a right to contribute their voice in this regard”

    Of course. A right to contribute but according to the rules of democracy, it must/should follow the voice of the majority. That’s what Fidesz tells us in the Hungarian context. “We got the majority (sic) we do what we want” is the Orbanist Principle, why does he not follow it in the EU context?

    “So please, do tell how those funds are a good deal on balance, when it is clearly a neo-colonist economic trap?”

    The funds, within Hungary, are being abused now. I personally would stop them until the Orbanists promise transparency and at least some pretence of a corruption-free state. To the EU’s elite (especially the EPP’s) shame they have supplied Orban with the funds to enrich his family and his buddies with no control.

    • “Nonsense. The EU is not murdering or even oppressing those within who disagree with its very existence.”

      Quite often military occupation only leads to murder if there is a rebellion. Same as EU, which will only murder a small Eastern nation economically if it would dare to rebel.

      Also way off on the majority rule thing, you are way off. Certain sovereignty rights were never relinquished when joining, for instance on migration policy, where every country still has the right to decide who they accept from outside the EU. Also EU procedures include national veto power over certain things. EU institutions stopped observing some of those national rights, which is at the root of current upheaval.

      On your last point, Hungary is no worse than many other countries in the region or in the West for that matter (Italy, Greece) when it comes to corruption, yet it is targeted and singled out. This whole “corruption” thing has become a very convenient way to beat nations in the region over the head with.

  25. György Lázár says:

    Dear Joe, The Orbán government claims that there are 15 million Hungarians, 10 million in Hungary, 2.5 million in the Carpathian basin outside Hungary’s borders and 2.5 million in the Diaspora. The reality is that there are about 9 million ethnic Hungarians in Hungary, 1.5+ million in the Carpathian basin outside the borders and about 1 million in the diaspora. Altogether maybe 12-12.5 million Hungarians in the world. Orbán’s policies are based on fake numbers… far from reality. It would make sense to base policies on real numbers not on fantasy…

    • Dear Gyorgy. I think one of your Romanian Noua Dreapta followers just showed up on the site (Dacian Thunder). I guess articles such as “A Szekelyek nem Magyarok” must be paying dividends.

      As for your numbers, as of 2011 there were over 1.2 million ethnic Hungarians in Transylvania, 500,000 in Slovakia, 150,000 in Ukraine, 200,000 in Serbia, and smaller numbers in Croatia and Slovenia adding up to about 2 million, so you and the Hungarian government can split the difference.

      I don’t really understand what your point is though. A celebration of the fact that where there were 3.5 million, and should be about 5 million, if natural birth rates alone would have been factor in past 100 years, there are only perhaps about 2 million, thanks to your hateful, bigoted friends and kindred spirits? Yes, I can see why such stats might cause the likes of you to do some victory laps!

      And which policy do you think needs to be changed based on your numbers dispute and why?

      • DacianThunder says:

        There were roughly 1.3 million(slightly less) declared hungarian ethnics in Romania, at the 2011 general population census held in Romania(something which Hungary does not dare do, it still publishes the population numbers based on the 1990 census, that`s 30 years ago).

        The new census will be in 2021, that`s just two years from now and the results of it will be published some 2 to 3 years after, @ 2023-2024(give or take)… we`ll see then what numbers add up…

        • And please do not ‘catalog’ me! I`m not from New Right(Noua Dreapta) political wing in Romania, or any other political organisation or N.G.O.! Just your average(simple) law abiding and taxpaying Romanian citizen here… nothing more!

  26. DacianThunder says:

    ‘Hungarians’ today are actually only 1-3% of the original asiatic gene, the rest of 97% are in fact hungarianized(magyarized), Dacians(Romanians), Austrians, Germans, Slovaks and Serbs, these last two(Slovaks & Serbs) in turn are slavified Dacians(Romanians)… @70 to 80%, original Dacian genes! Where are the 12-15 million “ethnic Hungarians”??? When in fact 50-65% of them are hungarianized former Dacians(Romanians)…

    Even 70 to 80% of the Hungarian language today, is in fact hungarianized(magyarized) Romanian language! It`s scientifically proven! There are numerous linguistic studies in Romania, which proves it all to the letter! And also quite a few of these linguistic studies abroad as well, mainly Germany and the United States!

    • Yes Dacian, your Romanian madrasas have thought you well. Did you repeat that BS over and over again, while swinging forward and back?

      • DacianThunder says:

        You`re welcome to prove the contrary ‘Joe’… but only if you provide real & hard scientific studies and facts! Otherwise it`s just like Hitler`s ‘Mein Kampf’… a dream, an illusion!

        Up to this monent in time and history, genetic pool studies studies alone, for the Carpathian basin, prove everything I`ve written above, to the last letter!

        • Really? Take a look at your claim in regards to Hungarian language! 70-80% “hungarianized” Romanian? That means that a Hungarian who does not speak Romanian and a Romanian who does not speak Hungarian should be able to engage in a basic conversation with each other. Very far from it! It is very common knowledge that Hungarians and Romanians speak very different languages.

          Here is a list of Hungarian words, with Romanian origin.

          https://www.ezglot.com/etymologies.php?l=hun&l2=ron

          Its a short list, to say the least and many of those words are not common outside Transylvanian-Hungarian communities.

          Most of the nonsense you populated site with (to Gyorgy Lazar’s delight) is equally ridiculous.

          I know, you probably believe in the Jesus was Romanian theory, together with Dacians were the original Latin speakers and the cradle of European civilization, and Dacians were the first to discover the Americas. They had to of course, because they had to ship back some corn to produce the national dish of Romanians, which the Dacians were eating, in anticipation of you needing to prove their continuity and transformation into the Great Romanian Nation.

          And of course, you believe in the Dacian ancestry theory, even though its an archaeologically extinct culture since the 4’th century, while proto-Romanians do not appear in present day Romania until hundreds of years later (Romanian historians tried hard, presenting Germanic, Slavic and Avar sites as proto Romanian, making fools of themselves every time they were confronted internationally). A Romanian historian once joked that Romanian archaeologists tend to know what they will find even before they start digging, namely evidence of Romanian continuity.

          Hungarians have their fools as well, of course. Difference is that perhaps 1% of Hungarians believe nonsense, while among Romanians, it is 99% who tend to believe, with only a small minority being able to admit it is all a bunch of distortions.

          Sad part for you and your nation is that you fail to realize that the joke is actually on you, because this indoctrination is in fact responsible for much of Romania’s social and economic dysfunction. Can’t properly function in this world when you distort its history, therefore its current state, only to make your piece of the puzzle, which is deformed to an extreme, to fit within it.

          • DacianThunder says:

            Man you guys, never changed that 1990-2005 rethoric, did you? 🙂

            “Take a look at your claim in regards to Hungarian language! 70-80% “hungarianized” Romanian?”

            You can also take a look for yourself, that the ‘hungarianized’ words, are so… hungarianized… that they`ve become practically unintelligible for the dacian(romanian) counterpart… that would be the main reason why a romanian can`t understand a hungarian speak and vice versa…! Not to mention the fact, that you`re list is much too short and that you should try digging a little deeper…

            “Most of the nonsense you populated site with (to Gyorgy Lazar’s delight) is equally ridiculous.”

            “Gyorgy Lazar” or perhaps you mean George Lazar?? LAZAR is an extremely common last name(family), across all of Romania, not just Transylvania!

            “because they had to ship back some corn to produce the national dish of Romanians”

            Mamaliga(boiled korn flour) is not the national Romanian dish at all… it`s just a complement to other dishes!

            “And of course, you believe in the Dacian ancestry theory, even though its an archaeologically extinct culture since the 4’th century”

            That was maybe fact in the `90`s and early 2000`s… alas for you… no longer anymore! Since 2005 onward there have been numerous sites found and investigated, that clearly prove that the Dacian people existed and continued well beyond the 4th century A.D. until the first historically attested Romanian principalities! Don`t forget about Gelu, which is 100% Dacian(romanian) name, which your own Gesta Hungarorum clearly attests that Gelu was a latin speaking ruler in Transylvania(together with Menumorut and Glad) prior to 1003 A.D. when you guys all of the sudden decided to barge in!

            How can you possibly deny, that there were absolutely no latin speakers(Dacians) in Transylvania prior to 1003 A.D., when you Hungarians invited yourselves in and your own written chronicals clearly attest that you already found latin speakers when you arrived and started ‘conquering’…?!

            And furthermore, when you tried to expand further to the south, in 1330 A.D., you were stopped yet again, by other latin speakers, at Posada…

            “Sad part for you and your nation is that you fail to realize that the joke is actually on you, because this indoctrination is in fact responsible for much of Romania’s social and economic dysfunction.”

            What social and economic dysfunction? Please describe…

          • So what are you saying here? “We had to lie till recently about those archaeological sites, but now we have real proof” Do you hear yourself? Please cite some internationally peer-reviewed archaeological studies supporting your claim.

            BTW, Gesta is a document written 400 years after the facts, with no references made by author to any primary documents or other valid evidence. It is on same level with Volsung Saga in terms of historical significance. The fact that to this day Romanian historians fail to recognize this and continue to cite it as primary evidence says all that needs to be known about the state of professionalism (or lack of it) in the discipline.

  27. ““We had to lie till recently about those archaeological sites, but now we have real proof” Do you hear yourself?”

    First of all, we lied about nothing! When there was just no proof, there wasn`t any and we were happy with that! Second of all, I`m talking about completely new digs(post 2005)… such as the Cucuteni major(huge) site, near Iasi(Jassy) in eastern Romania, there`s a whole museum in Cucuteni now, near Targu Frumos(you should visit sometime)… the most intriguing thing(fact) found here are the symbols(mainly the zwastica, but a few more other symbols as well), which date for longer than 9000 years(since 7000 B.C.), symbols with which Dacians(Romanians) painted their household and pottery, ever since! These wide range of symbols and other types of intricate drawings, but many tools as well, can be found on many and around, folk(traditional) Romanian households to this very day(I`m talking about houses built between 1750 and 1950)! The research is internationally certified as well, with many experts and universities participating, from Germany, France, U.K. and the United States as well! Also similar such symbols, intricate drawings and complex tools, have been found on new sites discovered in Transylvania as well, the most recent one being, the ancient fortress found near Arad, about two years ago, digging and researching of which is still going on to this very day!

    How`s that for proof, “monsieur pussycat”? 😛
    Right smack in your face, from more than 9000 years ago! 😀

    P.S. Don`t worry… it`s all been carbon dated! Which means it`s real, nothing fake…

    • Well!!!! I asked for a concrete example of a site, you provided BS about 9000 years of “Romanian continuity”.

      Interesting theory, given that Romanian is an Indo-European language, while Indo European language only reached present day Romania about 5,000 years later. In other words you were Indo-European 5,000 years before everyone else in Europe? There is only one distinct ethnic group which has claim to having been inhabiting more or less the same area, before Indo European presence and that is the Basc people in Spain, but their language is not Indo-European.

      All I can say about this is that you guys are rather weak in this regard. I read that some Ukrainian historians claimed about a decade ago that Ukrainians have been inhabiting their land for at least 15 million years. So you and your 9000 years just don’t compare!

      • “Well!!!! I asked for a concrete example of a site, you provided BS about 9000 years of “Romanian continuity”.”

        I`m wondering if you`re able to read at all… or perhaps you`re just having trouble processing that which you read…

        I`ll just quote myself, from my previous comment:

        “such as the Cucuteni major(huge) site, near Iasi(Jassy) in eastern Romania, there`s a whole museum in Cucuteni now, near Targu Frumos(you should visit sometime)… the most intriguing thing(fact) found here are the symbols(mainly the zwastica, but a few more other symbols as well), which date for longer than 9000 years(since 7000 B.C.), symbols with which Dacians(Romanians) painted their household and pottery, ever since! These wide range of symbols and other types of intricate drawings, but many tools as well, can be found on many and around, folk(traditional) Romanian households to this very day(I`m talking about houses built between 1750 and 1950)! The research is internationally certified as well, with many experts and universities participating, from Germany, France, U.K. and the United States as well! Also similar such symbols, intricate drawings and complex tools, have been found on new sites discovered in Transylvania as well, the most recent one being, the ancient fortress found near Arad, about two years ago, digging and researching of which is still going on to this very day!”

        Perhaps you missed the words “new site” “evidence found” “invetigated(researched)” “internationally certified” and “carbon dated” in Cucuteni near Targu Frumos Romania, where there is a whole museum now, about everything found and investigated, all on public display, with the added international certification… you can visit if you don`t believe me and see it all with you own eyes!

        Also perhaps you missed the “new site” found just “two years ago” near Arad in Transylvania, which upon preliminary investigation presents “evidence” similar to those from Cucuteni…??

        • Yes, that is great, but I did not ask for the Romanian version of Ancient Aliens. I asked if you can come up with a single site that shows proto-Romanian presence, in the form of a settlement at the time of the Magyar arrival in Transylvania, which would collaborate your version of “they came and occupied us” BS.

          • DacianThunder says:

            Well isn`t it so easy now, always wanting the absolute impossible, from a time when it was so difficult to establish a settlement larger than a few scattered wooden houses, due to the constant migrational waves in the area…

            But perhaps you should read yet again…

            Quoting:

            “the most intriguing thing(fact) found here are the symbols(mainly the zwastica, but a few more other symbols as well), which date for longer than 9000 years(since 7000 B.C.), symbols with which Dacians(Romanians) painted their household and pottery, ever since! These wide range of symbols and other types of intricate drawings, but many tools as well, can be found on many and around, folk(traditional) Romanian households to this very day(I`m talking about houses built between 1750 and 1950)!”

            Romanain households allover modern day Romania, which means including Transylvania! Symbols and drawings IDENTICAL to those from 7000 B.C.?? Tool designs and house building designs very similar to the houses build between 1750 and 1950, including by Transylvanian Romanians???

            Once again and just like before, you`re practically staring at the proof and just saying it`s just not there, because all you care about is “greatness” and “empire building”…

            I think that would be “the true pain” of all you hungarian irredentists wouldn`t it?? The fact that you`re just one little country in the Central of Europe that absolutely nobody gives a squat about…

      • DacianThunder says:

        “Interesting theory, given that Romanian is an Indo-European language, while Indo European language only reached present day Romania about 5,000 years later. In other words you were Indo-European 5,000 years before everyone else in Europe?”

        I`m afraid experts will have to “make an update” on this one… since obviously indo-european languages have been around longer than 5000 years…

        You can`t just permanently “stick”, with old knowledge of the past and cite is as uncontestable proof for anything! Archaeology & digging up the past, has been around for what? Roughly the last 200 years… give or take? I hope you do realize that it`s a constantly expanding and developing domain… there are being discovered new ways, new methods, to dig up and investigate things and ways to look at things, by each passing year…

        What we all knew in the 1990-2005-2010 interval, has radically changed since then, in the light of the new discoveries, which have provided scientists with totally new perpectives on how to picture the past!!!

  28. Another 20 years of Orban and Hungary will loose another 3 million citizens who got brains and goals and chose Western Europe, the Americas, Australia.

  29. DacianThunder says:

    B.T.W. I posted some replies to some of your comments at the:

    “Canadian and US soldiers participate, Hungary boycotts National Day Parade in Bucharest”

    article. My replies have been “awaiting for moderation” for almost 4 days now… perhaps you can ask your hungarian colleagues to finally make them appear and see what counter-replies you can give to those, Joe…! 🙂

    • As a matter of principle, I hope that the comments you wrote will be posted. One thing that you can be sure of however is that I will not bother to read them. In fact, past this conversation you will find that I will most often just ignore you.

      I asked you to back up your vicious comments, cataloging ethnic Hungarians in Transylvania as your “occupiers” or “magyarized romanians”, rather than a historical ethnic group that inhabited the area for over 1,000 years, by simply providing a concrete example of a proto-Romanian settlement in the area at the time of the Magyar arrival. You repeatedly avoided addressing it, as I suspected that you will, given that you don’t have anything viable to show.

      Our conversation helped to highlight the kind of indoctrination that the Romanian majority is brainwashed with, which then the ethnic Hungarian minority living there has to live with, given the hostile feelings that such indoctrination will cultivate in the majority population. I knew that engaging with you in this conversation will produce that result, so I did. I personally think that willfully distorting history in order to vilify, de-legitimize a historical minority group as you and your people tend to do is about as low as it gets, short of actually committing atrocities against such a group.

      You were useful in regards to highlighting the nature of the environment that ethnic Hungarians in Transylvania have to deal with, but do not expect me to entertain your delusions much beyond this point.

      • DacianThunder says:

        Trying to play the international victim, while ignoring historical evidence and facts, didn`t help you(magyar extremists) 20 years ago and it won`t help you now… all the more with today`s Orban`s attitude…

        “that the Romanian majority is brainwashed with”

        Brainwashed with internationally certified research?? WOW… new “concepts” every day…

        “which then the ethnic Hungarian minority living there has to live with, given the hostile feelings that such indoctrination will cultivate in the majority population.”

        Hostile how? How do these feelings exactly manifest? Please describe them… if you could also provide any concrete evidence of hungarian persecution in nowadays Romania…

        My replies to your comments at the “Canadian and US soldiers participate, Hungary boycotts National Day Parade in Bucharest” have finally been published…

      • Come on Joeee… absolutely no “thoughts of yours” regarding my replies to your comments at the “Canadian and US soldiers participate, Hungary boycotts National Day Parade in Bucharest” article?? :O

        I expected you to be more feisty…!!!

  30. Andras B. Gollner says:

    @ Bendy Goose

    “What’s “fake news” for you Gollner ?”

    Anything that you happen to post in this underpass.

    Happy now ?

  31. Here Joe… here`s you long last awaited proof… chocke on it!

    “Since the 3rd-4th centuries, the so-called Santana de Mures culture, which is predominant in the area of the Gothic tribes, tribes that continue the Roman monetary circulation, is remarkable. The Santana culture is followed by the Ipotesti Candesti culture (5th-7th centuries), which belongs to sedentary, self-contained communities, whose occupations (agriculture, animal breeding, Romanian ceramics) are characteristic of the proto-Romanian populations. At the same time, the continuity of trade with Byzantium is also remarkable, a further proof of the links between the Eastern Roman Empire and the northern Danube populations.”

    and furthermore going up to 1003 A.D. when you guys decided to occupy us:

    “”Dridu Culture must be understood for the rural character of the 8th-11th centuries,” said reputed researcher Ion Nestor. In the villages of Dridu were found many agricultural tools and carbonized cereals, but also a poor quality ceramics.”

    Quod erat demonstratum! 😀 AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    • Santana (Chernyakhov) culture was predominantly non-Dacic and disapeared 5’th century.

      Second one is attributed as an early, predominant Slavic culture (Prague-Korchak), with mixed in elements, including perhaps some remnants of the Dacic people. But if there were indeed such elements, they were most likely absorbed into the predominant culture.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak_culture

      Dridu culture may have more to do with present day Romanians, but it was found mostly south of the Danube, in present day Bulgaria, which spilled over into Southern Romania. So not sure how Hungarians could have occupied those guys, since it was not in Transylvania at the time of Magyar arrival.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan%E2%80%93Danubian_culture

      As for your other nonsense, such as trade with Byzantium? Really? Byzantine coins were even found in China for that period. The main factor that brought Byzantine coins into the area of present day Transylvania was the yearly tribute that they paid to the Huns in the fifth century, which was then divided up among Hun chiefs and Germanic vassals. Are the Chinese Huns and Goths your “ancestors” as well?

      You have a very messed up, distorted view of historical processes.

      The most likely story in this regard is that current Hungarian culture was formed from the Magyar tribes, with vassal tribes, possibly of Turkik origin mixed in along the way, which arrived in the Carpathian basin. Then they mixed in with already existing, mostly Slavic population in the area at the time. Only then can we talk of the present Hungarian nation.

      Romanians? Most likely formed through a mix of local Thracian peoples, with Roman veterans and others settled in the Balkan region, who spoke vulgar latin. Should specify that those veterans were originally mostly not from Italy, given military history of Rome. Slavic (Serbs, Croats, Slovenes) and Bulgar intrusion in Balkans is most likely factor that drove proto-Romanians across the Danube where they also mixed in with a predominantly slavic population, which is when you can talk of the formation of present day Romanians, from there gradually they spread into Moldova and then Transylvania. Your 9,000 year of continuity theory is bonkers, considering the demographic changes that took place along that whole period of history. Could there be a genetic presence from 9,000 years ago? Sure! But not a cultural one!

      Get a grip on reality!

      • DacianThunder says:

        “Dridu culture may have more to do with present day Romanians, but it was found mostly south of the Danube, in present day Bulgaria, which spilled over into Southern Romania. So not sure how Hungarians could have occupied those guys, since it was not in Transylvania at the time of Magyar arrival.”

        So according to you(to your “logics” better said) the Dridu culture which was present in this area between the 8th and 11th centuries, which means what… 700 to 1000 A.D. was only present(according to you) south of the Carpathians and in a 303 years time span, never managed to get across the Carpathians to the north, until 1003 A.D. when you “hungarians” were the first to come in?? They never managed to cross to the north in 303 years??!

        It took them until later, @1200-1300 A.D. to cross over the mountains?? It took them 500 years, half of millennium to finally arrive? Do you see yourself writing even?? And finally, you try so hard to discredit Gesta Hungarorum as being unreliable… but everything comes from something Joe… otherwise normally it wouldn`t exist!

        So in 300 years time the Dridu culture was so backward, so unevolved, that it never managed to go north and 1003 A.D. when you guys bust in, you clearly attest that you find latin speakers(Daco-Romans),(Gelou, Glad & Menumorut), which means that the Dridu culture never got across the Carpathians in 303 years?? Dude… you should exercise a bit of reality check… not me!

        Even if Gesta Hungarorum was written down 300-400 years after the events… it is still a history chronicle! It must of had older written sources, which to copy(take over) from… you can`t just write down history, out of imagination & fantasy…!!!

        “As for your other nonsense, such as trade with Byzantium? Really? Byzantine coins were even found in China for that period.”

        There are Byzantian historical chronicles of the time, which clearly attest the words “Romanus”, which means latin speakers… not only the coins exchanged in the trading process!

        “Your 9,000 year of continuity theory is bonkers”

        Perhaps you should read my previous comments yet again… zwastika and other drawings, nearly identical to those of 7000 B.C.??? Also on Romanian households from Transylvania?? How can that be Joe?? Don`t start telling me, that the Romanians that came from the south, 1000 years ago, had X-ray goggles, that could see through the ground and thus being able to replicate the exact same type of zwastikas and Romanian traditional house drawings and tools and house building techniques from more than 9000 years ago??!!

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